In a stunning reversal of events, John Gee publicly announces he no longer believes a long-touted evidence for the Book of Abraham is valid! This raises the question, how long has John Gee known this, and why has he been the major proponent of this evidence for decades? After a thorough examination of the evidence, RFM concludes we have to be cautious about taking at face value anything John Gee says about the Book of Abraham.
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Great episode! I would like to hear the opinions of archaeologists on the ‘Ulishem’ issue – just like Dr. Ritner clarified the issues from an Egyptological perspective. Maybe you could find another special guest to interview?
I remember that Brian Hauglid said during his interview that he had personally contacted an archaeologist in England asking about the “Olishem” issue.
The response, according to Brian Hauglid, was, “That’s pretty thin gruel.”
6.62X10^22…thank God for John Gee clarifying the odds!!
“Don’t tell me the odds!”
John Gee’s new book reminds me of Bill Reel’s journey. John is struggling with saving his own faith. RFM is a great example of how an apologist can repent of past transgressions.
And now John Gee’s new book has been pulled by Deseret Books.
And even by the publisher!
Which book?
ah… taking a hint from RFMs Muhlestein podcast, I’m unable to find “Saving Faith How Families Protect, Sustain, and Encourage Faith” I’m guessing it’s that one. I also found the reviews of this book found on Amazon quite insightful.
Gee only does what Boyd, Oaks, and most recently Holland have asked, and that is to serve as their apologists. Holland even said that no matter how outlandish their claims are, the Q15 has their backs. The Q15 will never come after an apologist for making a dishonest and disingenuous claim as long as its faith promoting. This is cult like behavior.
The apostles are quick to throw anyone under the bus, including John Gee, once they are no longer considered useful.
I don’t know what is going on in John Gee’s personal life right now, but I hear from a roundabout source that his professional career has suffered some substantial setbacks over the past year.
I think the chickens are coming home to roost.
Excellent episode RFM! Gee’s scholarship cannot be taken seriously unless you are proof-reader at RSC (FARMS).
I think Dr. Gee’s methodology is to arrive at the conclusions given him by the LDS Church.
Any methodology that arrives at the predetermined conclusion is by definition sound.
RFM
Gee knows that experts like Hauglid and Ritner have skewered him and his BoA apologetics. And thanks to you, Dehlin, Reel and others, his “abhorrent “ scholarship has been exposed to a much wider community of critical thinkers. He can feel the once firm ground he thought he was on begin to shift. He is worried that he could be out on a limb by himself. So he is going to gradually soften and recast his positions in an attempt at gaslighting.
More simply, he’s starting to cover his ass. Can you determine if some of his position-shifting was happening at the same time as the Ritner interviews?
I went back and checked.
I think Dr. Gee’s interview on Fair Voice with Hanna Seariac went up before the first interview with Robert Ritner was released.
It was, however, after the interview with Brian Hauglid.
Hi RFM,
I think it’s great that you’re holding John Gee’s feet to the fire by analyzing his statements and his published research for inconsistencies. He seems to be the keystone the the Church’s scholarly arguments supporting the Book of Abraham, so I think it’s great that you’re providing some friendly peer review. Keep up the good work.
Ditto that. I think RFM’s work is very important and worthy of monthly support.
The difficulty with holding Dr. Gee’s feet to the fire is that you have to first be pretty well acquainted with the subject matter before you can see how he is manipulating it to arrive at his conclusions.
I get the feeling he counts on that . . .
Who hoo that’s a turn up for the books isn’t it. One has to wonder if he’s changing his tune to gaslight himself out of a sticky situation without been noticed.
At a minimum, I get the feeling Dr. Gee is aware that whatever he says on the subject of the Book of Abraham is going to be closely scrutinized.
You can say all day long that you aren’t the one stealing cookies from the cookie jar, but when you learn that mom and dad set up a surveillance camera in the kitchen, you might start sounding less dogmatic about your innocence.
too many ollies and oollies
john gee has not relinquished any evidence.
he simply now thinks ooooly um is not ole, ha shem
Gee will find replacements for ole ha shem whatever….
he will spend the next two decades mining the word lists form the Ebla Excavations…
Gee is right. God told him so.
I do get the impression that, although Dr. Gee does not believe any of the proposed sites for Olishem/Ulisum are correct, he nevertheless holds out hope that the correct site of Ulisum will be found in what he considers to be the northern land of Ur.
John Gee is not going to flip flop on the Book of Abraham truth claims that quickly, he’ll have to get into retirement before he makes the switch known to the public. What Gee is really doing in the interview is leaving himself an opening wherein he gets to announce a big discovery of his own. He isn’t flip flopping, he is lying in wait. The only way John Gee comes correct about the book of Abraham is with Russell M Nelson’s full blessing. If we could just find a letter from David Whitmer refuting the authenticity of the Book of Mormon and saying it was only a thought exercise, because Russell M Nelson seem to love whatever David Whitmer has to say.
You may be right about this.
The fact there are a half-dozen or so proposed locations for Ulisum that the experts are arguing about leaves open the possibility that the real Ulisum has not yet even been discovered.
I think Dr. Gee has a location close enough to Ur to “know” when the “real” Ulisum has been discovered.
And perhaps he can even announce the astounding discovery himself!
I 100% agree. He is fully owned by the “brethren” When you’re a ‘made’ man in that pact…there is no getting out. and the way that usually works is that they have something on you and it won’t be worth your while to cut your loses.
Once again, RFM has saved the day. I sleep safer at night knowing he’ll be there whenever commissioner Gordon and Chief O’Hara illuminate the night sky with the RFM signal. To recap this weeks thrilling episode…
After lulling his therapist to sleep with overly boring childhood stories, King Tut (John Gee) escapes custody and assembles a new gang.
After a brutal melee, RFM and his youthful ward subdue Tut’s gang and erase their memories with RFM-nesia gas, but Tut himself escapes.
Though they have run out of RFM-nesia gas, RFM and his youthful ward nevertheless pursue Tut.
The raised voice of Jeffery R. Holland dislodges a chunk of the City Creek ceiling, which lands on Tut’s head and knocks him unconscious.
To the Dynamic Duo’s relief, Tut awakens fully restored to his “true” personality – a mild-mannered Yale professor who knows nothing of RFM and his youthful ward.
Shortly after, the professor is reinstated at Yale, and his former gang sent to prison. Before the authorities can relax, however, reports of an alien invasion begin sweeping Gotham.
Brilliant!
RFM….
It was really revealing to include the clips of John Gee talking about his beloved topic, or should I say ball and chain!
Without knowing him at all, its so clear that he is weary of the web of feeble arguments he must uphold. And as the glaring truth closes in on him, he sounds barely able to summon the tired, ridiculous mental gymnastics to complete on his contract with the powers that control him.
Its like the person who sells his soul to the devil and in the beginning, its wine , women, and song, but as time goes on , the true price becomes apparent and there is no escaping.
The price he is paying now has to be a painful one, as his explanations and defence of the Book of Abraham just suck all the life out of him and do nothing but bring him ridicule from his peers and a complete lack of respect. He is a laughing stalk, that has zero credibility or alignment with fact.
His holdout for the discovery of an ancient location that will validate the book of Abraham is laughable even if it is found. Its not enough. You can hear in his voice that HE doesn’t even believe it.
Maybe he is close to retirement and pension and can run for the barn in sight…poor old workhorse!
You are so right! It had to be someone like you that knows the topic and the tactics cold, to decipher the subtle nuances of the game.
Bravo…you’re a beast!
RFM:
I apologize in advance for being a grammar nazi, but “evidence” is a non-countable noun, so “an evidence” or “evidences” is grammatically incorrect. “a piece of evidence” or “a body of evidence” are correct.
I’m a never-mo, but I have cousins who are mormon. I’ve been listening to your podcast for a year or so now, and I greatly enjoy your work, including your interview with John Dehlin and Dr. Ritter on Mormon Stories. <3